Venom – The Last Dance: John Moffatt and Aharon Bourland – Production VFX Supervisors

Back in 2012, John Moffat shared insights into DNEG‘s visual effects for Snow White and the Huntsman. Since then, he has overseen the visual effects on a wide range of shows, including Life, The 15:17 to Paris, Wonder Woman 1984, and Secret Invasion.

Since starting her visual effects career at Tippett Studio in 2003, Aharon Bourland has been involved in the creation of visual effects for various films such as After Earth, Avengers: Infinity War, Ghostbusters: Afterlife, and The Matrix Resurrections.

How was the collaboration with Director Kelly Marcel?

John Moffatt // Kelly and I got on really well from the start of the show. Kelly is super talented, clear about her direction. She is also really collaborative and happy to listen to ideas and suggestions for how something may work. Through all of the stages of the movies production we discussed ideas, reviewed concept material, and iterated on shots and assets. I really love working with Kelly.

Aharon Bourland // Working with Kelly Marcel was such a creative and open experience. She really encouraged us to bring depth to the characters. With her background in writing, her focus was always on the story and how our characters could really add to it. One of my favorite examples is how she encouraged me to keep building up the character of Lasher. She started out as a small role, but by the end, she became one of the most memorable parts of the film!

John, what fresh ideas did you bring to the Venom world, and Aharon, how did you help integrate those with the established visual style from your past experience?

John Moffatt // I’m not sure that there are many fresh ideas, I think most good ideas are simple and its about how we as a group implement those ideas. One of things that we had to do on this movie was see Venom in the daylight. Something that had not been done in the previous two movies. I was very keen to test that early on the production and we did that with a good degree of success. Venom has not really got any Diffuse component he is pretty much all spec and reflection so it was an exercise that required a fair bit of iteration before we landed on something that we all liked. In terms of ideas, and keeping things simple – I try to have clarity with the Director in terms of what they want and then look to give them as much time as possible to evolve the work as we move through the production.

Aharon, John Moffatt joins you as VFX supervisor on this one. How did you integrate his contributions with the established visual style from your past experience?

Aharon Bourland // John and I have a long history of working together, and our skills really complement each other. He comes from a compositing background and has an incredible eye for color and composition, while I lean more toward animation and FX. We each brought our strengths to the table to take Venom to the next level for this film.

How did you organize the work between you two and with your VFX Producer?

John Moffatt // I brought on Aharon Bourland as I think she is a fantastic talent and I love working with her. David Lee was our DNEG Supe and we also worked with Paul Franklin as we have known each other for a long time. At ILM, Simone Coco headed up the team. Greg Baxter was our Production side Producer.

Aharon Bourland // We divided up the VFX work by vendor. I was responsible for ILM, Digital Domain (DD), and Instinctual, while John handled DNEG and Territory Studio. After I came on, I also took care of the Post Vis with The Third Floor. Greg Baxter was our Producer across all the vendors, and Mickael Bec Velazquez worked alongside him as his Associate Producer. It was a smooth system that helped keep everything running efficiently!

What is the your role on set and how do you work with other departments?

John Moffatt // I enjoy being on set working with the team. My role is to try and be part of the team and shoot the best possible material for the movie. With a specific eye towards how will the material we are shooting work for vfx.

Aharon Bourland // Before the actual shoot, we collaborate with all the departments to figure out what elements will be shot and what we’ll need to cover. On set, our main job is working with the directors—Kelly Marcel for the main unit and Brian Smrz for second unit—to help everyone understand how the VFX will be integrated into the footage we’re shooting. It can get pretty complex, especially when we’re dealing with animated characters that don’t exist in the real world. I often find myself acting out scenes on the day so people can better visualize what’s going to happen. Sometimes, I’ll do quick drawings over stills to help make things clearer. I also work closely with the camera team to make sure we capture enough clean plates and alternate angles, so we have everything we need to support the work as it evolves in post-production.

How did you choose the various vendors and split the work amongst them?

John Moffatt // We decided to use DNEG because they had a history with the other two movies, I also worked there for almost two decades and had a good relationship. We chose to work with ILM because they are fantastic and we also had a great relationship with some of the key folk in the team they put forward for the job. We worked with Rodeo FX, because I had worked with them before and they had been great partners and we also worked with DD.

We decided to put the entire third act with one vendor and the rest with another – but as things developed as the work changed shape during production. Basically ILM did the River and the Third Act, DNEG did most of the rest of it, Rodeo did the Beach Flashback and DD did the Knull work.

Aharon Bourland // We chose to work with DNEG because they had a solid history with the previous two movies, and me and john had work there for many years, so we had a great relationships built on.

ILM was an easy choice because they’re fantastic, and we also had strong connections with some of the key people on their team for this project. We worked with Rodeo because john had partnered with them before, and they were great to work with, and we also collaborated with DD.

How has the visual representation of Venom evolved across the three films in the saga? What new techniques were used in the latest chapter?

John Moffatt // We wanted to give Venom the ability to give as emotional performance as possible, so we developed new face shapes for him. We tweaked the shape of Wraith Venoms head to make it less flat across the top. But really the main evolution was in the daylight look dev.

Aharon Bourland // The look of Venom really evolved naturally over the three films. The first movie was kind of like a prototype—we were figuring out the basic forms, like the slug, wraith, and full symbiote. Since the whole movie took place at night, we mostly focused on how his skin reflected light. In the second movie, we focused more on refining Venom’s animation and performance. A lot of the breakthroughs were actually with Carnage and how we used procedural animation to have him grow and even envelope a church.

For the third and final chapter, we added a lot more detail to Venom’s shading, especially so he would look better in daylight. We also had to upgrade the face animation system so Venom could express a wider range of emotions, which was really important for showing his relationship with Eddie. Plus, Venom got to take on some new forms in this movie—he became a fish, a frog, and even a horse! But even with these new looks, we made sure each one still felt like Venom. And we took everything we learned from the procedural animation and geometry generation from the big merge fight in the first film and Carnage’s transformations in the second film to create the massive final form, the Venomphage, which was a mix of Venom and five Xenophages.

How did you ensure that each symbiote in this film had a unique visual identity, from their colors to the way they interact with the environment?

Aharon Bourland // Each symbiote started with research into their comic book versions, and from there, we evolved those into ‘hero’ versions that fit the story. It was really important that each symbiote had a unique set of abilities that complemented the others and helped move the story forward. For example, Lava’s red and yellow fire whip worked well with the tendril cage that Animal/Tendril used to restrain the Xenophage. Dr. Payne’s symbiote was also tied thematically to her character. Her life was changed by a lightning bolt, and when she bonded with the symbiote, it gave her lightning-like abilities, bringing her story full circle.

What challenges did you face in portraying the complex relationship between Venom and Eddie Brock, visually speaking, in this third film?

John Moffatt // I had a good relationship with Tom (Hardy) and we discussed how he wanted to do things, Kelly and Tom are really close and so we let Tom’s performance drive how we animated Venom. Tom is really good at keeping his eyeline alive and that constant vibrancy that he brings gave the animators great material to work with.

How did the design and animation of the symbiotes’ interactions with their hosts evolve in this chapter compared to previous films?

Aharon Bourland // The rules from the first two movies mostly stayed the same, but we did loosen one rule a bit: the symbiotes could bond with their hosts more easily this time around. The big advancement was in the design of the symbiote army that helped Venom in the final battle. Each symbiote had its own unique abilities, which really influenced how they behaved and how the fight was choreographed. For example, Jim (the copper-brown symbiote) was a bruiser with powerful punching fists, while Lasher (the green-red symbiote) was quick and a slashing attacker. As a team, each symbiote played a key role in the fight. We also introduced something new by having two of the symbiotes combine to create a hybrid with new powers. We did this with Animal and Tendril, and it really added another layer to the action!

Venom’s abilities have grown and evolved over the trilogy. What new effects or abilities did you introduce for Venom in this film that were particularly challenging or exciting to create?

Aharon Bourland // Having venom bond with multiple different animals was the big addition to this film.

In creating the Xenophage, what were the key design elements that made it a terrifying new creature? How did you approach its movement and texture?

John Moffatt // We had a design that Kelly loved when I joined the show. Karl Lindberg had done a concept and DNEG had done some evolution of it and created a really solid concept version of the asset. We commisioned a movment study very early in prep and Chris Lentz and Chas Jarret at DNEG created a sequence that people at the Studio and on the Production got really excited about. Once we had a clear direction in terms of how it was going to move and behave we moved the asset back into build and created a movie quality asset based on the coneot version that was used for the movement study. The movement was actually all in black and white. So we also developed the lookdev of the creature as we refined the asset – but Kelly had a very clear idea of how she wanted it to look.

The Xenophage has a very distinct and menacing presence. How did you integrate practical effects with CGI to make it feel as realistic and frightening as possible?

John Moffatt // As I mentioned at the outset – most good ideas are simple. So we looked at all of the moments in the script when she was going to be in the scene and worked with SFX to create interactive effects that would enhance the creatures on screen presence. Often we will shoot with and without specific preactical effects in the event that things change in post and plates that have been shot with specific purpose in prep and shoot change and end up being used differently in post.

Aharon Bourland // Whenever we could, we used practical SFX for the Xenophages’ interactions with the environment. This included real explosions, ratchet pulls on set pieces, and even flipping CanAms. Since we filmed so many practical effects, we had tons of great reference to use when we needed to recreate or enhance them with CGI. Another advantage of having these practical elements and stunt work was that it allowed us to choreograph the shots like we would for an action sequence. This really gave the action a grounded, realistic feel and helped make the Xenophages even more menacing.

Can you walk us through the process of creating the battle sequences between Venom, the new symbiotes and the Xeonphages? What were the biggest technical hurdles?

Aharon Bourland // Creating the battle sequences was a long, evolving process. It all started with previs, where we worked out the general outline of the action with Kelly and Brian. Once we had a rough idea, we moved into stunt rehearsals. The major story points stayed the same, but the specifics of how the action flowed were worked out on the actual location with stunt performers. This was really important because the physical realities of the location and what real performers can do don’t always match up with previs. After that, we shot stunt viz for all the key action moments.

Then we moved into principal photography, which closely followed the stunt viz, though we made some minor adjustments based on how things were playing out on the day. We shot clean plates and alternate angles to cover any changes that might come up in post-production. There was a good amount of restructuring done during post, but we managed to pull it off by using a mix of plates and full CG shots. The biggest technical challenge was choreographing all the multi-character fight beats. These had to be hand-animated to make sure they didn’t just feel like actors in rubber suits. Simone Coco and his team did an amazing job bringing life and character to those fight moments.

Can you elaborate on the collaboration between the VFX team and the stunt coordinators for the various battle scenes?

John Moffatt // As with Practical SFX we worked closely with the Stunt team. Stunts often produce Stunt Viz during Prep which serves as a great guid for action beats in the movie. Jim Churchman and Jake Tomuri were a joy to work with and we had a good relationship. For me and I think most folk who do this job its about choosing the best approach for each shot, or sometimes elements within a shot. So for example, if the Stunt team can do a practical wire gag and the effect can be in camera, we’ll do that. We will then be on hand to remove the rigs or padding, but ultimately it results in a better on screen reality. Its all a conversation geared towards creating the best finished result.

How did you approach the scenes where Venom and the symbiotes morph and transform in real-time during action sequences?

Aharon Bourland // Our approach to the transformations was to keep them feeling natural and organic within the action, rather than drawing too much attention to them. We didn’t want the transformations to feel like a separate moment—they should just flow with the action. On the technical side, we created a toolkit of ‘ingredients’ that we could remix to achieve different styles of transformations. This involved using layers of procedurally generated geometry in Houdini, which gave us the flexibility to create the various morphs as they happened in real-time.

In terms of lighting and color, how did you differentiate Venom’s darker, grittier tone from the other symbiotes and the Xenophage, especially in battle scenes?

Aharon Bourland // Our overall lighting philosophy was to keep things as photographic and grounded as possible. We didn’t want to over-light the characters just for clarity—sometimes, we let them fall into shadow or silhouette if that’s what the plates called for. This helped give the fantastical characters a more real, tangible feel. It was important to avoid that cartoonish look, especially with all the brightly colored comic book characters running around. By keeping the lighting more natural, we made sure Venom’s darker, grittier tone stood out, while also differentiating him from the other symbiotes and the Xenophage, especially during the intense battle scenes.

What role did previs play in developing the visual effects for the large-scale symbiote battles?

John Moffatt // We Previs’d a lot of this movie. But as mentioned above things evolve during the post production stage of movies. During the actor and writers strike we worked on Previs for the battle sequence which we shot as soon as production resumed. Kelly had already written it so it wasnt affected by the strike – but we wanted to hit the resumption of filming with a solid plan. So It played a big part.

Aharon Bourland // Previs played a huge role in developing the VFX-heavy sequences. It helped us map out the complex action early on. But honestly, post-vis was just as essential, maybe even more so. We used post-vis extensively to work through notes that came up in editorial and to refine the scenes. This really helped give vendors a clear sense of direction once they began tackling the shots in detail.

With the introduction of Knull, how did the team conceptualize and design him and his prison?

Aharon Bourland // We went straight to the comic source material to bring Knull to life. Our goal was to make him feel like he stepped right out of the comics, with just a few tweaks to his eyes and mouth to help with expression and clarity of speech. We wanted fans to feel like this was the Knull they knew, just in cinematic form. His prison, though, gave us more room for interpretation. We drew a lot from The King In Black series and then evolved those visuals using techniques we’d developed for Venom’s goo in the previous films. This approach helped integrate Knull’s world into Venom’s cinematic language and really cemented their connection.

Were there any unexpected technical or creative challenges encountered during the production?

John Moffatt // Not really – I think that we have all learned that story evolves as production does and Visual effects role is to facilitate that. Id be more surprised these days if things were not challenging or unexpected.

Aharon Bourland // There were definitely some unexpected challenges—what would filmmaking be without them? Most were creative changes, but we had a big technical surprise with the river tank. Since it was heated, it produced a massive, unexpected amount of steam, which we then had to clean up in post. Another interesting challenge was designing the green symbiote that bonds with Mulligan. Kelly had a unique vision for him—she wanted a snake-like, semi-transparent ‘water god’ look. Dave Lee and his team at DNEG did a fantastic job bringing that vision to life. Challenges like these are just part of the process, and honestly, they’re what make it all so interesting.

Looking back on the project, what aspects of the visual effects are you most proud of?

John Moffatt // I like the Wraith Venom performance in the desert and during the third act when Eddie and Venom decide to make the ultimate sacrifice.

Aharon Bourland // When I look back on the project, there are two things I’m especially proud of. First, the work that ILM did on the river tank is just amazing. They extended the tank seamlessly, both above and below water, in a way that really helped expand the world of the movie. The second thing is the Venomphage. Animating six characters at once, while making sure they performed a heartfelt goodbye, was a huge challenge. On top of that, we had to layer in fluid effects to simulate the burning acid that Venom uses to sacrifice himself—it was complex but really rewarding.

How long have you worked on this show?

John Moffatt // 22 months.

Aharon Bourland // I was on the show for about a year

What’s the VFX shots count?

John Moffatt // 1285.

What is your next project?

John Moffatt // Walking my dog.

Aharon Bourland // Right now, I’m working on a few things, but I’d love to take on a “Swamp Thing” movie at some point. Though, I’m probably going to take a bit of a break and recharge.

A big thanks for your time.

WANT TO KNOW MORE?
Digital Domain: Dedicated page about Venom: The Last Dance on Digital Domain website.
DNEG: Dedicated page about Venom: The Last Dance on DNEG website.
ILM: Dedicated page about Venom: The Last Dance on ILM website.
Rodeo FX: Dedicated page about Venom: The Last Dance on Rodeo FX website.

© Vincent Frei – The Art of VFX – 2024